The Other Worlds Shrine

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  • Roseanne returning in 2018, ignoring season 9

  • Your favorite band sucks, and you have terrible taste in movies.
Your favorite band sucks, and you have terrible taste in movies.
 #170046  by Julius Seeker
 Sun May 21, 2017 2:43 pm
At the end season 8 Dan took a heart attack. Season 9 occurred and at the end it is revealed that Dan had actually died a season earlier after his heart attack in season 8. Apparently they're ignoring that whole storyline. Dan didn't die, and all of that was fictional. In 2018 the entire core family cast, including John Goodman, will return to Roseanne in 2018.

Lecy Goranson will reprise her role as Becky, and Sarah Chalke will be on the show as a different character.

Nothing said about Bev yet. Estelle Parsons is now 87 years old, but still acts periodically.

The David and Mark characters are still a big question. Roseanne earlier said that in a revival the two characters would be written out with David leaving Darlene for a younger woman, and Darlene coming out. Mark would die in Iraq.

http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/news/ ... character/

 #170065  by ManaMan
 Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:00 pm
Do they have any footage from the new series yet? The videos I saw were just like a "greatest hits" reel with the most controversial topics covered by the original series.
 #170560  by Shrinweck
 Wed May 30, 2018 1:05 am
Her Twitter has gone off the rails for a while now. It's honestly kind of weird that this was the last straw.

I got a kick out of her saying a 7-14 year old was part of a Nazi conspiracy.

Edit: Viacom no longer going to air reruns... wow
 #170564  by kali o.
 Thu May 31, 2018 11:23 am
1. Roseanne has always had far out ideas and theories.

2. Roseanne has been a left leaning activist for decades (and she would have been considered far left just 10 years ago). But she supported Trump, so the mob relishes it.

3. Do you really want to advocate for a world where an apology is insufficient for a verbal transgression? Think about it...
 #170565  by Shrinweck
 Thu May 31, 2018 4:10 pm
This is really a pattern of behavior, though. I agree that an apology could suffice depending on the error but for how many times? This is a woman that jumps on damaging theories like a high school shooting survivor doing a Nazi salute and Trump breaking up a child sex trafficking ring ran by prominent democrats. This isn't just supporting trump it's her going into the deep end and remaining there. Her children attempted to take her social media access away when she got her show. She probably should have let them.
 #170566  by Julius Seeker
 Thu May 31, 2018 7:00 pm
kali o. wrote:Do you really want to advocate for a world where an apology is insufficient for a verbal transgression? Think about it...
I don't think anyone here is saying they support the cancellation of the show. A meaningful apology is sufficient.

From what I have been reading about Roseanne lately - and Shrinweck's post basically says it all - she needs help with her mental stability issues. Getting treatment may have been enough to convince anyone offended that her apology was meaningful.

But it's not rocket science, Roseanne is in a public relations position, she has standards to uphold on behalf of ABC and their advertisers.
Offending a large portion of the customers your advertisers have spent years of work and hundreds of millions targeting is simply bad for business; they don't want to damage that relationship with their customers. Especially in the age of the Internet. This isn't new, media blackballing has been a thing since the 1940s at the least.

Why did ABC cancel it instead of an apology? It might have been a kneejerk reaction. More likely they were aware of Roseanne's history, calculated she wasn't trustworthy to uphold her part of the bargain and canceled their contract. The plan of action was probably put in place months ago in some boardroom meeting. As a bit of evidence, her own children were attempting to get her off social media while she was working on the show. I'd wager they greenlit the show on the promise that she'd keep herself together.

The best possible outcome (IMO) is the show is repackaged without her (until she gets sorted out, at least). It's not an unheard of tactic.
Last edited by Julius Seeker on Thu May 31, 2018 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 #170568  by kali o.
 Thu May 31, 2018 7:27 pm
While I understand what both of you said, it does not appear balanced, nor do you really speak to the mob mentality that is driving a lot of this. This is the part that is really bugging me; and just because you two might be reasonable doesn't speak to the growing mob of stupidity with support through media.

In the same period, Samantha Bee called Ivanka a cunt, Griffin is on her non apology tour and I'm not even getting into Kimmel or Keith Olbermann.

Further, I encourage all the shit Shrin criticized, lol. Hogg does look and sound like a little Nazi, with no comprehension of the actual things he stands against. Fuck that little prick. Did you listen to what he was saying in the outline interview? And even if I didn't like the well deserved pot shots, it's important to protect speech **I** find offensive -- not the speech I like.

And finally, why is so hard to accept Roseanne's explanation? VJ sure didn't look black to me, but she does look stretched and simian -- I had to wiki that shit to find out she was half black.
 #170569  by Julius Seeker
 Thu May 31, 2018 7:55 pm
Not much idea on the Samantha Bee/Kathy Griffin stuff.

They're standup comedy. They're also targeting the Trumps; a low-risk target, IMO. It will piss off Fox news hosts, Megyn Kelly, and a few others who constantly rail on "liberal media *shakes fist*" anyway. The PTC or some organization will likely start a letter writing/social media campaign against their sponsors, and it may or may not go anywhere.
 #170570  by Shrinweck
 Thu May 31, 2018 8:48 pm
There's more of a stigma on remarking on a black person looking like an ape because it's drenched in the context of past racism - something the United States justifiably needs to contend with.

A woman calling another woman a cunt isn't really comparable. I don't follow Griffin. The only thing I've heard about Kimmel is that he's advocating for his sick child. Olbermann isn't on my radar at all. A quick googling of Olbermann is troubling but it also says he's leaving TV and is now on a magazine? So, I mean, what more needs to be done?

The double standard people see just don't fly for me in a country whose past racism means that any current form of it needs to be heavily curtailed. This level of discourse against Ivanka is leveraged against a political entity - the people (not you kali I'm not trying to project other peoples arguments onto you) comparing it to Michelle Obama or his daughters forget that this is a person in a genuine position of power. She deserves a degree of criticism. The insults are probably too far, but she isn't protected like the children of presidents - she's a fully grown adult in power. Also it was on Comedy Central in the context of a comedy show. Maybe it's still wrong, but the degree of accountability isn't really there, the same way Roseanne wouldn't be held completely personally responsible for a joke made on her show.
 #170571  by kali o.
 Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:41 pm
...in a country whose past racism means that any current form of it needs to be heavily curtailed
.

I'm going to put aside the rest (even though you simply dismissed it). The above quote -- four questions:

- Do you believe Roseanne is racist?

- Who will drive the curtailing of racism? society/mob? Corporations? The government?

- What kind of racism or prejudice to you believe needs to be curtailed? Mean tweets? Policy? Thoughts?

- By what method should it be curtailed? Criminalizing speech? Public flogging? Ostracization? Re-education?

There will always be a prejudice against anyone different from yourself and outside your immediate circle. I am curious how you envision curtailing that; and the society you believe it will produce. At best, you get people to not express their thoughts. You do not eliminate those thoughts.
 #170572  by Julius Seeker
 Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:34 pm
Roseanne's situation is a question of business rather than morality and justice.

In other words, the question is not "What's the appropriate punishment for Roseanne's tweet?"
But rather "How much damage is she doing to our value if we hold onto her?"
 #170573  by kali o.
 Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:59 pm
Julius Seeker wrote:Roseanne's situation is a question of business rather than morality and justice.

In other words, the question is not "What's the appropriate punishment for Roseanne's tweet?"
But rather "How much damage is she doing to our value if we hold onto her?"
I don't think that's true. Roseanne was ABC's number 1 show, and they don't own the rights to the brand. They lost 10's, or more likely, 100's of million on this.

Let's take Samantha Bee as the counter point. Her ratings are terrible and retaining her is a losing proposition.

There are obviously differences; we can't do a straight comparison here, but I think it's clear this isn't just about business.

For the record, I don't think either should be fired -- just pointing out the double standards and addressing your argument.
 #170574  by Shrinweck
 Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:35 pm
kali o. wrote:
...in a country whose past racism means that any current form of it needs to be heavily curtailed
.

I'm going to put aside the rest (even though you simply dismissed it). The above quote -- four questions:

- Do you believe Roseanne is racist?

- Who will drive the curtailing of racism? society/mob? Corporations? The government?

- What kind of racism or prejudice to you believe needs to be curtailed? Mean tweets? Policy? Thoughts?

- By what method should it be curtailed? Criminalizing speech? Public flogging? Ostracization? Re-education?

There will always be a prejudice against anyone different from yourself and outside your immediate circle. I am curious how you envision curtailing that; and the society you believe it will produce. At best, you get people to not express their thoughts. You do not eliminate those thoughts.
I think what she said was racist... and then put aside the rest of your post because I don't particularly feel like putting the kind of time into replying about something so far outside of the scope of this thread. Each one of those questions could only be answered by hundreds if not thousands of words.

Hard pass even if I wanted to put that kind of time into it. I've put too much time into those kinds of posts here just to have 97% of my post ignored so that three sentences out of dozens could be nit picked. That isn't even mostly aimed at you or anyone who still posts here but it is a feeling that I've had in the past on this board. A lot of the time it feels like I'm the one putting myself out there just to get shit on. I don't need a three thousand word policy platform just to vent on a message board.

A lot of the time I don't think these people should be fired either but the fact of the matter is that these people have opinions that are shared by people who want to do people like me bodily harm. I'm not really feeling particularly charitable to these people, especially the spokespeople/gateway opinion holders for extremism (in this particular case this would be the dehumanizing of a person - basically step one towards treating someone as sub-human). The difference in the right wing and left wing extremists in these categories being the body count.
 #170575  by Julius Seeker
 Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:44 pm
There are a few factors with Samantha Bee:
1. Considering her bit was in the context of political comedy TV show, it was likely written and greenlit, and therefore not unexpected by the production staff.
2. Samantha Bee is under control. She is predictable. She has no history of unpredictability.
3. The only people she offended are people who don't like bad words. Plus, given it was Ivanka Trump, it's not offending anyone her company or advertisement partners are targetting.

With Roseanne,
1. No doubt they lost a lot of money on it, Roseanne was their most popular show; but the loss didn't occur from cancelling the show, it's because Roseanne took a massive shit in the gravy, destroying its value.
2. Roseanne's actions (and potential future actions) offended a HUGE target market. One that ABC is heavily competing for. In fact, they only fall under Fox for the "African American" demographic.
3. If you pay attention to the commercials, they are targeting the "African American" audience as well, these brands have a relationship of trust with their consumer base.
4. My speculation: ABC was aware of Roseanne's history, but were willing to look past it for the potentially huge audience she would bring in. The chances are near certain the contract to green light the show was for her to stay away from Social Media and not embarrass their brand. To add evidence this occurred: people close to her, including her children attempted to keep her from social media for the duration of the show.

Doing a bit of research: ABC charges anywhere from $120,000 to $460,000 per minute of ad space across all their programming (minus events, that can go as high as 5 million a minute). A large portion of this advertisement is directed at the African American audience; because it is one of the most valuable consumer bases in the US. To explain this further:
1. Target audiences are generally created of people who are in similar situations. Most are temporary, like students, or parents of young children. Others are created through joint hardships.
2. When it comes to racial minorities, such as black people in the US, there was a long history of persecution and a shared experience of being the target of dehumanization (as Shrin points out). This shared experience of persecution created the African American class.
3. No doubt ABC has invested a lot of time and money into building up that relationship with African Americans. It's a large and incredibly valuable target consumer base because - unlike a father of a young child or a student - it's a potential lifelong relationship; e.g. if black people see Coca-Cola as their drink, that Coke will always be supportive of them, then a large number of African Americans are going to be compelled to purchase a coke when they want a soft drink.
4. Advertisement is not just money, but repetition over time. The psychology of repeating something over and over again and then people start becoming comfortable with it. Sometimes over weeks, other times over months and years; and then maintaining that after.

If ABC maintains a large number of African American viewers, they are valuable to advertisers competing for that target market. They increase their value as a network.


To put that into market terms, a large lifelong target consumer base, because African Americans are a HUGE population with a lot of spending power - a company establishing a relationship of trust can establish a lifelong bond, 60+ years of a large loyal customer base; this is why so many commercials feature black people - it's basically good business.

So going back to that $120,000 to $450,000 per minute - or up to several million per episode aired on their network.
While ABC lost money on Roseanne for cancelling the show, the potential for losing their hard-earned investment of the African American audience, and the potential of lost business partners who don't want to associate their brand as supporting a network who features someone deemed as anti-African American. Lets say they (hypothetically) lost $100-300 million; it's a loss, but it nothing compared to the potential loss of sponsorship partners across the board of their (I imagine) 24 hour programming schedule. She undermined their investment, and given her instability and unpredictability, her chance of embarrassing them again and insulting their consumers is high - ABC does not want to risk losing a very important consumer base they might never regain.


The last factor, most Americans - regardless of race - consider racism to be something that ranges from offensive to dangerous.
You can't say "Roseanne shouldn't have been fired" without considering the position of those people who stand to lose a lot of business by holding onto her. It's possible that if Roseanne DIDN'T have a history of that she would be given the benefit of the doubt; that they could reasonably convince their advertisement partners and audience that "this was an abnormal outburst." But given her history, that's impossible.




Shrin - I DO very much value you putting time into this board, as well as anyone else who does. We are one of the very oldest tight-knit communities on the Internet. We date back to 1997. Can anyone even find a community like ours that goes back that far?
 #170576  by kali o.
 Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:48 pm
don't particularly feel like putting the kind of time into replying about something so far outside of the scope of this thread.
It's within the scope of this thread because you brought it up. Id like to know how you imagine changing human nature and stopping mean words / thoughts, because from my perspective, your only options are pretty dystopian and scary (at least on my loose understanding of what you want, since you didnt clarify).

I also dont think its particularly fair for you to cop out and claim you are being dismissed. We have written equal amounts here. I passed on the rest of what you said because you made excuses for non-comparability...but at the end of the day, all the examples provided are just words / verbal transgressions. So its a go nowhere topic, besides us applying personal biases and weight to each example, hence why I put it aside. And I focused in on what I found interesting and debatable (identify the problem to address and tell me how you want to fix it). If you don't want to address it because you feel it would be too much work or you simply are not interested, that's fine...but why presume I (or anyone else) won't read or consider it?
 #170577  by kali o.
 Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:40 pm
Seeker, a lot of what you wrote went into theorizing about the financials of ABC. While that's interesting, its all hypothetical. I'll focus on what I think can be debated first:

As mentioned, I agree there are differences. TBS greenlit Samantha Bee's comments, within the show. You seem to sell that as a bit of an excuse for not firing SB...I'd actually argue the opposite is true. The network, the show and all involved are more culpable in that case, less able to apologize for an error in judgement and I think it is a very fair position to say one actors mean tweet in their off hours' (or really, nearly anything they do in their of hours) should have less justification to cancel a show, which often involves hundreds of jobs and unrelated parties.

I also think that TBS allowing that highlights what a toxic climate has been allowed to surface in media / Hollywood and get directed at the right / Trump.

With respect to the rest, which largely hinged on the Black demographic, I would counter with the following. First, I think a portion of that demographic (not sure how large it is for Roseanne) would have forgiven Roseanne based on a contrite apology. The majority of those that would not are likely not a fan of the actor or the show anyway. Second, I think you are overestimating the value of that market. Conservatives are an underserved market in all media except talk radio (which is why so many flock there). It's nearly 50% of the country and yet best of luck finding a conservative late night talk show, comedy, sitcom or whatever. If it was simply business, that market far exceeds the Black demo unwilling to forgive Roseanne (which, by the way, neither Roseanne nor the show is particularly Conservative - Left leaning libertarian at best, with Trump support sprinkled on top). With the removal of Roseanne, I think all conservatives have left is Last Man Standing. Finally, Roseanne being unpredictable or risky may play a role -- but to be fair, Roseanne has been Roseanne for decades, and ABC had to know that going into this revival (actually, due to how quick ABC acted, it wouldn't surprise me if they had this Plan X waiting in the wings for any transgression).

In summary, if you are lazy, Conservatives equal a bigger and far less served demo than blacks. If it was just business, then I think this would not be the path taken.
 #170580  by Julius Seeker
 Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:19 pm
While I don't know what goes on in the ABC boardroom meetings, I'd be shocked if profit motive in a multi-billion dollar corporate subsidiary wasn't the driving factor.

I am not making an excuse for Samantha Bee, I am explaining what happened. In my experience: if you make a mistake that was greenlit, then the meeting is about how we can improve the process for the future; if you make a mistake that wasn't greenlit, there's a lot of freakouts because it's an unpredictable event that's occurred. The reason why TBS apologized and took responsibility is that it's likely what literally occurred.

In addition, while it may not look fair to you, the brutal results of dehumanization of black people is a fact of history that most Americans are aware of. Whether or not there is any truth to it is not even relevant. Calling Ivanka a cunt, in the eyes of most, amounts to nothing more than disrespecting an authority figure. I would say it was greenlit because it was deemed a safe target. It's not even the morality of what word is worse; in a free market society, the consumer bases determine everything.

When it comes to "Conservatives" as a market segment there's a big issue: what's a conservative? What is a conservative not? And you'll see why 15-30 seconds ads targeting and positioning themselves in that market is incredibly difficult. While Roseanne may come off as looking like a Conservative show, that's not what the audience was; it was the nostalgic audience. While you can make a show that appeals to Conservatives, it's the sponsors who pay for the show; and their consumers are what's important; the risk of alienating what looks to be the biggest target market segment is likely not a business risk they're willing to take; especially in the current environment, and with the high chance of spilliover damage into the general consumer base.

Morality doesn't generally come into play as a motivation for publically traded corporations unless it's a business decision. I don't think they feel Roseanne is a good face for their network. Considering how fast they fired and disowned her, it's likely they already had a plan in place and had calculated that cutting her loose is better for their long-term business goals. Apologizing and putting on a bandage until the wound heals is one way to deal with it; but due to Roseanne's history, it seems she'd likely rip that bandage off and scratch the wound with a rusty hook.


As a note: there's a potential spinoff featuring Darlene as the star.
 #170585  by kali o.
 Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:23 pm
The spinoff will fail - no one on that show was good enough to carry a sequel.

It wasn't a question so much of *you* excusing TBS, it was you were implying it was an excuse for less culpability (at least as I read it, right or wrong). It was premeditated, approved and put out there -- the consequences should be more severe for that than a momentary lapse in judgement or misunderstanding (such as a tweet). if we are discussing things where "an apology just doesn't cut it" - I can't see how you cannot share my position here.

We simply disagree on Roseanne's base and the value of the conservative demo, I guess, so nowhere to go there.

In any case, the media is dehumanizing, as you put it, the current administration. That seems incredibly un-American, uncivil and damaging. The shots at Ivanka have been disgusting -- not just the cunt comment, but suggesting Trump wants her sexually. This is directed at the current president and his daughter?!? Ya...it's not comparable to Roseanne's confusing tweet -- it's 1000x fucking worse and was greenlit by TBS.

Now, from my perspective, as a Canadian who already stated I wanted Trump just to watch the corrupt system implode -- I am kinda getting what I wanted. But I also see the incredibly unpatriotic attitude in the media AND I am shocked at the slant in american MSM, and question how much impact the media has on the average person (and does that impact carry ethical considerations that are being shat on currently...I think so). It's highly disturbing to me.
 #170591  by Julius Seeker
 Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:31 pm
1. Spinoff - we'll see what happens. Some cast and crew may be under contract still.

2. Samantha Bee - I don't see your logic here. Samantha Bee following the script is not grounds for greater punishment. Why should TBS be more angry at Samantha Bee for doing the job she's supposed to?

3. Roseanne's Base - We do? I agree with the TV ratings and analysis. It's possible it would later become more conservative, and probably a lot smaller of an audience as a result. But my main point has to do with targeted marketing, and why Conservatives are not a good target. There is a reason why, outside of political ads, no one markets to conservatives, liberals, leftist, or rightists; far too broad and vague for a 15-30 second ad - and I explained my reasoning above.

4. Disgusting comments - As I put it: African Americans is an artificially constructed class of black people living in the US as a result of enduring hundreds of years of horrific treatment, in which dehumanization was used as a tactic for the justification of harming them due to nothing more than their genetic history. I don't see how you are drawing a parallel with the Trumps, and how their plight is "1000x fucking worse."

My argument is about the business of ABC and their partners: they've spent years and billions of dollars on brand building and advertising to the African American segment; by mimicking the dehumanization tactics used against African Americans, as a top public figure for the network, Roseanne is undermining that.

I'll add that if it were not due to the history of African American maltreatment, then no one would bat an eyelash at Roseanne's comments, and ABC would likely not give a damn; but that's not the reality of the world. On TBS: Due to the US first constitutional amendment, they have the right to say what they want about the government.

5. Unpatriotic attitudes: I wasn't aware criticizing the government was disturbingly unpatriotic. I also don't think this is anything even close to new in any Western democratic society; it's not like the mainstream media is waving Confederate flags and demanding separation from the US.
 #170596  by kali o.
 Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:00 am
Julius Seeker wrote:5. Unpatriotic attitudes: I wasn't aware criticizing the government was disturbingly unpatriotic. I also don't think this is anything even close to new in any Western democratic society; it's not like the mainstream media is waving Confederate flags and demanding separation from the US.
Without getting into the more subtle point (a pattern of mainstream negative coverage and attacks in amounts and tone otherwise never seen from the media against a sitting president) -- if we don't agree an environment that cultivates a scenario where someone on a Network show calls the President's daughter a cunt and suggests her dad wants to fuck her...if we can't call that toxic and unpatriotic...then what can we? Who is the newest example today? De Niro?

That's just the latest example and it's symptomatic of a larger and ongoing trend. But I think we are far off point now :)

If there is a spinoff, I expect it to do poorly. We will see.