The Other Worlds Shrine

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  • Schala in Chrono Cross vs Radical Dreamers

  • Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
 #172956  by Don
 Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:37 am
So this recent thing about Chrono Cross remake made me check some videos on Radical Dreamers, the original visual novel type game on SNES. Although they didn't mention Schala by name, it's obvious that she's supposed to be Kid there too. There's also no real tie-in to Lavos, just that Schala was still lost somewhere out there and she became Kid to experience a different life, and at the end of the game Kid finally remembers that she's Schala and The Unstealable Gem, the ending theme for both Radical Dreamers and Chrono Cross, is the fact that Kid finally remembered that she's Schala Zeal. In Radical Dreamers it'd also appear that Schala and Kid are the same person. Schala/Kid also ends up finding Serge at the end, when he's already an old man and I guess Schala is immortal or at least extremely long lived but they still met, just like she promised before they parted ways.

In Chrono Cross, Schala and Kid are I guess two different people. Schala is extremely pretentious. I'm actually pretty offended by her whole speech at the end where she pretty much lectures on the party as being some kind of Supreme Being deal on the meaning of life. It reminds me of Terranigma when after you beat the game you get lectured by Light Gaia and are told Ark needs to go away anyway because he's of the Darkside. However the big difference is that I think in Terranigma you know by now that Lightside and Darkside aren't absolute so there's no reason to believe Light Gaia is necessarily looking out for the well being for Ark who is the champion of the Darkside, and indeed the ending suggests that Ark managed to defy the fate that was ordained by the Lightside and ended up with Lightside Elle which probably isn't how things are supposed to turn out if Light Gaia has his way.

Further, the whole 'world exists for the evolution of the Ultimate Being' stuff is thoroughly debunked in Chrono Trigger. When the party confronted Lavos Core it dawned on them that evolution only exists for the existence of Lavos Core and there are some memorial line where they shot it down, my favorite being Marle's "I mean, this is everyone's world!" Chrono Cross tramples on a lot of the fond memories of Chrono Trigger needlessly, and this is another perfect example. The Chrono Trigger cast already overcame this in the past, and you'd never imagine Schala, who is probably The Entity who works tirelessly to protect the lives of the weak no matter how insignificant, needs to be suddenly start telling you that maybe all of existence is some kind of pointless thing on the path toward the end of evolution. Also, Schala did literally nothing in the entire game of Chrono Cross except waiting to get rescued. This isn't like Chrono Trigger where it's heavily hinted that she's the Entity doing stuff like opening a time portal so Lucca can save her mother, and someone who always sacrificed herself to help others. In fact, I think the point is that we're in this mess because she's too selfless because if she turned her back on the Mammon Machine earlier and refused to help, Lavos likely could be defeated much easier since you need Schala's powers to drain the planet's energy but Schala could never abandon anyone even if it means her actions doomed the planet. Most of her dialogue is something Lavos might say if Lavos could talk, and even if she eventually refutes that, that kind of gibberish is not something that should ever come out of Schala. The Schala of Chrono Trigger would never go along with the idea of how people are just pawns for the wheel of evolution, and the fact that she needs to say 'btw I'm totally not for this idea' is an insult because nobody would ever doubt the Schala of Chrono Trigger would turn her back on the downtrodden.

It's also worth noting that Schala in Chrono Cross doesn't really find Serge beyond some weird symbolic thing, and besides, who actually finds Serge at the end? The way she's dressed obviously looks like Schala, but Schala has no attachment to any characters in Chrono Cross, so it's probably Kid who just decided to redo her hairstyle to match Schala's? Or does the two actually merge at some point? But again, if Schala is the dominant personality, what is her purpose to even finding Serge because her main personality knows nothing about Serge other than that he lead a party that eventually freed her, but the whole 'finding Serge' thing clearly isn't just so that Schala can say 'thanks for bailing me out back there'. Besides, shouldn't Schala be trying to find, um, Janus? Of course, this is where the whole Gil not being Janus in Chrono Cross whereas Magil is clearly Magus in Radical Dreamers also comes into play. If you look at the letter Lucca left behind obviously it's intended that Janus was always part of the party, as Gil, except he isn't.

I think by trying to overplay the whole Schala being some kind of cosmic being of importance it greatly diminished her charm. In Radical Dreamers, although Schala is still the likely immortal Entity forever lost in timestream, we get that all she wanted to is live another normal life again which is why she became Kid even at the cost of losing her memories and powers. In Chrono Cross, she became Kid because there's some cosmic conspiracy involved and mega complicated plan needed to save all of existence in all dimensions from the Time Devourer. I realize Chrono Cross probably has big expectations so if it turns out the whole story is just Schala throwing a tantrum because she wanted to experience the life she's lost after spending an eternity righting what's wrong with history, but I think Schala and Chrono Trigger does deserve to throw a tantrum. They don't need to prove themselves again by saving a dimension or whatever this time around. If Princess Schala wants to go on an adventure with her knight in shining armor and that's the entire point of the game, she's entitled to that. In Radical Dreamers, it's her adventure and her identity that's the Unstealable Gem. In Chrono Cross, I'm not even sure what's the point, because those memories and adventure are only meaningful for Kid, who is gone from the party half of the time anyway, and has zero relevance to Schala since we don't even know if the two remains separate entities or merged together at some point. In fact, even in the ending itself there's a sharp contrast. You have Schala talking about the meaning of life, and Kid is basically like 'stop yapping I'll find ya Serge', and I think she probably should have slapped Schala much earlier to make her shut up monologuing about the meaning of life.
 #172960  by Julius Seeker
 Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:40 pm
I meant to respond to this post like 2 weeks ago, but I got busy.

Anyway, very much agreed that making Schala's character into some kind of deity really diminished her charm. I think the story worked out a lot better not knowing her fate. There's something beautiful and tragic about that, knowing she's lost for what might be the rest of time. I don’t recall the game that well, but if memory serves me, Queen Zeal might have played the role of Lavos’s human component a lot better.

I think the blame can fall on the pressure put on Chrono Cross writer, Masato Kato, for how things turned out. He had a hit with Chrono Trigger, but the moment they put time constraints on him, he’s kind of like “fuck it! Let’s just do this and move on to the next task.”

This was first apparent with his work on Chrono Trigger. He was the second director (after Takahashi) and third writer (after Takahashi and Saga) and the work he did stuck out like a sore thumb. I think Takahashi and Saga had very clear ideas about what they wanted done, and when they are under pressure, they don’t compromise. They seem to just work harder and longer. Kato just wanted to get things done. He didn’t seem to have any interest in bringing the quality up to the point of the other two writers with all his lousy comedy bits in the game, and brushing over important things, even diminishing the importance of parts of Takahashi and Saga’s stories, or usage of Mitsuda’s music.

Gonna go on a bit of a rant here,
There was a bit of a schism in Square around the FF6/FF7 era. Sakaguchi stepped back, Kitase, Nomura, Soraya Saga, Tetsuya Takahashi, and a few others took over. Takahashi was most defiant against Sakaguchi and purged a lot of his design and direction.

Kitase also really stepped it up. His job was to unify all the stories and design by a much larger team than they had on the past games, and he did so with resounding success. Sakaguchi was strong at writing small scenarios, but he often missed the mark when unifying them for an overall vision. FF6 was really the first game to do this—disregarding the Final Fantasy Legend games, that were really part of the SaGa series. Just for example, the Four Fiends of element in FF1 used their dark orbs to suck the energy out of the elements, like vampires, causing them to decay… Sakaguchi showed this for the first fiend (earth) and then completely abandoned the idea for the other 3.
End of rant.

Anyway, I’m not saying Kato was some kind of hit job on Takahashi, but it looks that way. But if it was, Sakaguchi shot Chrono Cross in the foot, because Kato brought those bad habits over to his own Chrono franchise. He seemed to stop caring about his own characters, and just wanted to get it done. But I suspect it had more to do with Sakaguchi and his bizarre timelines for such ambitious games. Mitsuda was hospitalized with stress ulcers. It wasn’t the first time, as he’s a perfectionist who also can’t deal with a lot of pressure (unlike Takahashi, who seems to deal with it fine). A lot of the devs from Chrono Cross left Square after the project.

I think a remake will fix a lot of the issues, but I don’t know about the Schala stuff… all the Schala stuff. It seems like something they won’t want to change too drastically.
 #172961  by Eric
 Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:00 am
Well at this point we don't know if the remake is legit or just the result of that mobile collaboration Square ok'd.

Chrono series has been dead for a while now, I don't even remember the last time they re-released and tried to milk the original game.
 #172963  by Julius Seeker
 Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:55 pm
In 2008, they made the DS update.
In 2011, they brought the PSX version to Playstation consoles, the DS version to iOS, and the SNES version to Wii.
In 2018 they released a remaster on Steam, iOS, and Android.

Still waiting for them to milk it on Switch or some kind of SNES Classic 2 mini-console. The original got FF6, Earthbound, and Mario RPG, but not Chrono Trigger.
 #172965  by Don
 Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:48 pm
I went to watch the various endings for Chrono Cross and it seems like they paid more attention to those endings than most of the game. Like you can tell Harle is actually supposed to be important based on these endings, but you sure can't tell that during the actual game. I think they just didn't have a good direction, like they didn't know whether to milk Chrono Trigger for nostalgia or make a brand new game and you end up with some weird hybrid that's like halfway in between.
 #172967  by Julius Seeker
 Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:44 pm
I’m in the camp of preferring remakes and reimaginings to sequels. Going a bit off the Chrono topic for this post, but I’m nursing an injury and have nothing else to do but to go on one large rant :D

Reimaginings and Xenogears as a reimagining of FF6 and Chrono Trigger

As for reimaginings, I’ll bring up Xenogears again. It was originally was supposed to be a Final Fantasy sequel and at another time a Chrono Trigger sequel. It ended up reimagining some elements of both Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy 6. The stuff it took from FF6 is mainly from the contributions of Soraya Saga and Tetsuya Takahashi - the changes he made to the Magitek Armour, and her character work with the Aveh dynasty (Figaro).

The Gears are the second iteration of Magitek Armour, and Deus is a new version of Lavos. So basically, Sakaguchi had this original outline of FF6 that was a very basic “Rebels vs Empire” story. But new (and, IMO, more) talented writers who had various roles on the project, Kitase, Saga, Nomura, and (of course) Takahashi. They hijacked the project as Sakaguchi didn’t have a lot of time for writing any longer as he moved into his management role. The idea of magicite, and a false god using an ultimate source, was likely brought in by Takahashi or Saga (or both) from the early SaGa games the other franchise they worked on. While technically they aren’t credited with FF Legend 2 they might have had something to do with it, or were inspired by it.

Takahashi often looks to his earlier works for inspiration

There is an old NES game called Faxanadu, which Tetsuya Takahashi isn’t credited on, but it might have been the very first game he ever worked on as he joined that dev team right after the launch of that game. It influenced him, as he had a large interest in vertical worlds warring each other - Xenoblade Chronicles is a lot like Faxanadu - you end up going up Bionis (like Faxanadu’s world tree) and then heading into the more advanced but ruined civilization of Mechonis (like Faxanadu’s dwarf mountain). So, he tends to carry down themes with him, and will incorporate them even decades later.

Final Fantasy 6’s interesting development history and the “rivalry” between Sakaguchi and the younger writers leading to the formation of Monolith Soft

As FF6’s story goes, Kitase unified all the stories into a cohesive narrative, and now it has many many fans even to this very day. It was much more successful than Sakaguchi’s earlier works. I think there was some resentment between him and the other writers, especially Takahashi - as Suguira (another square employee at the time) confirmed that Takahashi and co left Square because they were unhappy with Sakaguchi’s creative direction for the studio. The straw that broke the camel’s back was the 100 million USD+ they poured into Final Fantasy The Spirits Within. But Monolithsoft was basically made up of Chrono Cross, Xenogears, and FFX devs in its earliest stages. Their goal was to make a sequel to Xenogears - the first attempt Xenosaga went off the rails after Episode 1 - and Xenoblade has been a more cautious attempt, the games are all very much prototypes - or at least began that way… the franchise has grown into its own monster that is now bigger and more successful than Xenogears and Xenosaga combined.

Back to the reimagined elements of FF6 and Chrono Trigger on Xenogears. Gears = Magitek Armour, Deus = Lavos

With the Gears, instead of sourcing their energy from the Goddesses, along with all magic, it’s from the Wave Existence in the Zohar.

They chose to focus on the forced evolutionary elements of Lavos, that Chrono Trigger told, but didn’t show. They went with a retelling of Arthur C. Clarke’s Childhood’s End. A book which has basically had all of its elements harvested and made into new properties—most notably, Independence Day and Star Craft.

Childhood’s End spoilers
Spoiler: show
I read the book about 20 years ago, a time when I was suffering from Mono, had little social life beyond my inner circle of friends, and a few others who took it upon themselves to keep me company. I read a lot, played many games - I think I played Skies of Arcadia twice. But that’s beside the point.

Childhood’s End starts in 1999, the book was written in 1953, Clarke really underestimated what would be achieved over the next two decades. There are also images copied by popular films like Independence Day. Also, there are chapters that seem to be based on a bad psychedelic trip that Clarke had, they really remind me of other authors describing similar experiences - Bret Easton Ellis (author of books like American Psycho and Less than Zero) has written a few chapters like that.

In 1999, the US and USSR are both about to launch their first manned spaceships and large circular space ships spanning dozens of kilometres across emerge and hover above the cities, bringing darkness upon them. The alien fleet is led by the Over Lord Karellan, who never shows his face, but speaks to humanity from time to time.

The ships sit in orbit, humanity is not sure what to do, they even try nuking one, which ends in disaster.

After time, the aliens speak. They open up, people are more willing to accept them now that the ships are so a part of daily life. The aliens bring new evolutionary changes to humanity using nanotechnology. Over decades, a golden age occurs where humans develop clairvoyant and telekinetic powers. Life becomes simple, communication much easier.

This era ends after years, people begin to transform into something like Wels. The book IMO becomes very dark and horrific because, from the POV characters, reality begins making no sense. It’s like a bad mushroom trip. People begin walking around with a weird interpretation of the world - seeing everything in strange light spectrums—it all read like some kind of bad trip fever dream (if I remember correctly, it was more from a third person POV, so it was like a sober view examining madness—not quite Easton Ellis style first person madness).

They’re all heading to a central area (kind of like the Sephiroth clones, which may have also been written by Takahashi). The story ends with humanity merging into a single lifeform, it then consumes the entire planet, and joins the Overmind, an entity that I remember nothing about, just that it is the ultimate leader of the alien civilization. The story doesn’t elaborate on why it needed humanity and earth.

The later pets of the story is largely viewed through the eyes of one of the scientists who stowed away on one of the massive alien ship from an earlier time period. So he wasn’t very evolved. He was able to travel forward through time because of time dilation experienced when the ship travels to the alien home world and back to earth. He watches as the new Deus-like creature eats the earth—presumably for metals and minerals. The book doesn’t answer the reason for it, but it hints that it’s to be part of the Overmind’s greater collective consciousness body.
So, in a way, Xenogears is a spiritual successor of Chrono Trigger and FF6, and IMO, it worked out well. As it wasn’t in the same universe, just exploring some of the interesting elements that the original games kind of used as a gimmick and didn’t elaborate on.
 #173002  by Oracle
 Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:41 pm
https://square-enix-games.com/en_EU/gam ... rs-edition

ANOTHER WORLD, ANOTHER DESTINY
Now available to pre-purchase on Nintendo Switch™, Xbox One and Steam®!

"CHRONO CROSS: THE RADICAL DREAMERS EDITION" is an HD remaster of "CHRONO CROSS".

CHRONO CROSS is an RPG that transcends time and space, unfolding across two interlinked parallel worlds.
With over 40 party members to meet, people and dimensions will intertwine in this epic drama about the planet itself.

New Features in the Remastered Edition:
◆ 3D models converted to HD
◆ Refined character illustrations
◆ Higher-quality background music
◆ Switch enemy encounters on or off
◆ Background filter feature
◆ Battle enhancement features to make combat easier
◆ Auto-battle function
◆ Switch between imitation pixel font and HD font
◆ Change screen resolution
 #173016  by Don
 Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:58 pm
Saw it on Steam too, and the intro video shows FATE and Schala. I guess the stature of spoilers has expired on those but still. It's probably pretty improbable to even guess the girl in the ending is Schala since their hair color doesn't even match.
 #173017  by Eric
 Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:11 pm
Man I don't know what happened with Square's PC ports as of late, for they started off rough for a while(FFXIII) then they got really good(FFXV) and now we're back to them being really shoddy and inferior to the console versions(FFVII Remake, Stranger of Paradise, and now Chrono Cross).
 #173019  by Eric
 Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:37 am
It's a little disappointing just how low effort this port is, but honestly it just fuels my theory that SquareEnix doesn't really like The Chrono series due to the lifetime sales of CT whenever they re-release it lol.

I could also be wrong, I think they re-released FFVII in a troll manner and then like 8 months later announced FFVII Remake finally.