Holy shit, Sine, you've been Cassamasina all along?

[Zeus]

Why didn't you say you were IGN's editor in chief?

http://wii.ign.com/articles/105/1054621p1.html

[SineSwiper]

And having IGN's editor-in-chief agree with me is bad how?

[Zeus]

And having IGN's editor-in-chief agree with me is bad how?

I never said it was.....

[Blotus]

Huh, that's weird. I always thought Casamassina was a fanboy (his wife works for Nintendo, IIRC). Maybe this is just a joke to drum up some traffic.

[SineSwiper]

Having read the article, it makes a lot of sense. I'm completely blown away by the first part of the article about New SMB.

So the characters are: Mario, Luigi, Toad, and a second Toad? Seriously? That really is fucking lazy. Not to mention it's a slap in the face for the growing female gaming population, since four-player games traditionally add the token female in the mix (see: Borderlands and L4D).

[Zeus]

Blotus, I actually agree with most of what he's said. Nintendo has been quite lazy with the Wii in the last couple of years. As awesome as NSMBW is - and it fucking kicks all kinds of ass - if they had included Peach and Toadstool in it and given all 4 of the characters the differing abilities a la Super Mario Bros 2 on the NES and designed the levels that way (with the ability for player 1 to switch between them or for up to 4 players for playing simultaneously), it would quite literally be the greatest platforming game ever made. Sure, they created one of the best ever as is but it still has so much more potential it almost makes you angry they don't realize that potential.

And the guy's right, it's been that way with a lot of the releases post year 1. Don't forget, a lot of the great, early titles, including Zelda and Super Paper Mario, were actually ported GC titles. Super Smash Bros is only amazingly awesome 'cause the creator essentially got a blank cheque (and his own studio built) to create the game. Yes, Wario Ware and Mario Galaxy were awesome but what about the other "sequels"? Mario Kart was nothing more than a track pack and wasn't even as deep or diverse as the best ever in that series, Mario Kart DS. Same with Animal Crossing vs the DS version. Metroid Prime 3 as excellent sequel as it was, would have been that much more kick-ass with proper cutscenes (thankfully, it looks like Team Ninja will correct that with Another M).

And all their "casual" titles are all very, very, very short on depth and technical prowess. As you guys well know from my MM arguments, I don't need top-end graphics to enjoy a game. But with Wii- games, they're actually PS1-N64 level, just cleaner. Would it be so hard for the Miis to have full bodies and customizability like the avatars? Not at all, it's hardly anything. Imagine how much better they would look in the background or games when used on the Wii. You could even design more stuff around it (like a Wii Fashion game which allows you to dress up your Mii like a doll; tell me they didn't drop the ball on that one). Look how idiotic they look in Wii Music as well. With Wii Fit, they could even have used them to be your on-screen avatar if they had enough detail but they don't. So you get a generic figure instead. And it's only due to short-sightedness or laziness on their part. Choosing and old-school style is fine but being lazy is never, ever acceptable.

As good as a first year and a half they had (best ever, even better than DC), they could have (and should have) been even better and later titles should have addressed a lot of the shortcomings. But they didn't as Nintendo chose to play it safe and simple with all their titles and not pour money into them to keep their profitability as high as possible. OK, first 2 years you get a break but now? Completely unacceptable.

[SineSwiper]

But, again, why bother when the zealots continue to make them millions? Nintendo is getting more and more like Apple. And I mean Apple's bad side.

[Zeus]

But, again, why bother when the zealots continue to make them millions? Nintendo is getting more and more like Apple. And I mean Apple's bad side.

Yeah, but they've also delivered so often in the past that we can hope this is just a phase and they get back to delivering the goods. Again, they have done quite a bit of great, NSMBW included. But we know they can be better and much more often than not in the past, they have

[SineSwiper]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... o-Bros-Wii

[Eric]

I liked Adam Sessler's take on New Super Mario Bros actually http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/70107 ... Super.html

[Flip]

If the guy could actually talk coherently then i might like what he had to say too?

EDIT (adam sessler)

[Don]

Nintendo caters to two kinds of population:

1. Casual.
2. Guys who believe good graphics is the Original Sin.

It's not just Nintendo, but since they've been the one running with the weakest system for quite a while they probably does encourage people into thinking that if you actually had something that looked presentable it requires selling out your soul to the devil in exchange for that. We'd still be in the Garden of Nintendo if we didn't take the Forbidden 16 bit Fruit (or 32, or 64, or whatever).

[Zeus]

Nintendo caters to two kinds of population:

1. Casual.
2. Guys who believe good graphics is the Original Sin.
.

In particular with releases such as:

1) Zelda: Twilight Princess: an ugly title that only your grandmother would play
2) Metroid Prime 3: a wanna-be FPS that really can't handle being one with last-gen graphics and gameplay only fans of Wii Music can love
3) Super Mario Galaxy: a game only a mother can love with graphics so jagged they'll make your eyes bleed
4) Wario Ware Smooth Moves: with it's 5-second mini-game setup, only kids with ADHD who can't sit down for more than 1 hour a week total at a time will enjoy
5) Super Paper Mario: a title that tries to be both a platformer and RPG but ends up being neither with a putrid cell-shaded 2D look
6) Super Smash Bros Brawl: a last-gen, randomized, button-mashing fighter with zero skill or appeal to anyone

Great that Nintendo's release schedule has proven your point, hasn't it? [/extreme sarcasm]

Look, RPG-boy, you don't like their stuff, fine. I get it and it's OK, it's your opinion you're entitled to it. But like I told Sine and Flip, don't let your personal bias trick you into believing the bullshit slander by Sony or Microshaft fanboys trying to feel better about themselves by slamming Nintendo due to the obvious jealously and disdain at their success while ignoring mountaining evidence to the contrary. Just because they've released a bunch of casual, "non-game" don't mean they've released shit for the "gamer". Understand the difference between fact and fiction.

[Don]

Is Zeus trying to say that a system that does not remotely compete on firepower and not very much in any of the core gamer category is supposed to be good at both?

The fact is that you have been saying the same thing back when Nintendo was a nonfactor in the N64 and Gamecube days, and Nintendo's overall strategy, other than the move toward casual gaming, has not changed very much. Now it's all good they can tap this additional market, but as far as I can tell most people on this board are not part of the casual gaming crowd. It'd be like if we're in a fine cuisine discussion and you say well McDonald's Steak House has to be the best fine cuisine because McDonald is the biggest fast food too. Well of course McDonalds makes more money than all the fine cuisine put together but we're not talking about that. Nintendo, as a platform, is strongly supported by casual gaming. There's nothing wrong with that but it is just not of any particular interest to the demographics of this board.

Of course you were relatively quiet when Nintendo was a nobody in the last 2 or so generations because you're the kind of guy that only feels secure if your game/system is the biggest one out there. Heck, if Megaman 9 flopped in sales I guess you'd just shut up about it instead of saying how it's all great and the sales prove it, even though it's not exactly easy to compare sales across vastly different markets.

Unless you're either a stakeholder in one of the companies involved, or you're worried that your game/company is doing so bad it might be discontinued, it really doesn't matter what the rest of the world thinks of a game. You don't need some sales or Internet statistics to validate that you're indeed right and everyone else is wrong. If we go by that the best game ever would still be Final Fantasy 7 or Zelda: The Ocarina of Time. It'd be great if other people agree with you but that is not a criteria for a great game, and it's certainly not a criteria to enjoy a game. And casual gaming certainly isn't particularly relevant in a demographics that is clearly not casual.

Then again, Blizzard advertises WoW as '11 million people can't be wrong'. I guess there are a lot of people that believes in that.

[Zeus]

Of course you were relatively quiet when Nintendo was a nobody in the last 2 or so generations because you're the kind of guy that only feels secure if your game/system is the biggest one out there.

You have never ever read a single word I have ever posted, have you? If so, you wouldn't write something so silly as "your game/system". Unlike you, I actually own all of the systems and play whatever good games are out there regardless of who releases them and what system they're on. If you actually read my posts you'd know that I've been defending or slamming games on all system and that the only thing that matters is the games themselves.

See, some of us have left high school and don't do stupid system wars anymore. The only reason I ever see a need to defend Nintendo is because there are a few of you very loud guys here who keep on ragging on them, spewing out the bullshit slander fanboys keep up to feel better about themselves. I have been quite unhappy with Nintendo over the last year and a half when it comes to the Wii (between Smash Bros and NSMBW, there was no solid releases from them; Mario Kart Wii and Animal Crossing were disappointing) and have on numerous occasions ragged on them even here. Did you pick up on that? Nope. You just labeled me as "Nintendo boy" and that's it.

So explain something to me: what benefit is there in me continuing on arguing with you when you've clearly proven over and over again that your personal bias will do nothing but turn every argument destructive? Basically, you're like Seek now, there's nothing to be gained from arguing with you. I like to argue, I learn a lot that way but it ain't happening with you anymore 'cause you can't get over your bias. Unfortunate, I used to like carrying on arguments with you.

[SineSwiper]

I liked Adam Sessler's take on New Super Mario Bros actually http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/70107 ... Super.html

Yeah, he's a bit of a rambler in "real life", but I get what he's saying. Games like SMB are no longer fulfilling or "goal based". It's like they are too easy, and if they are too hard, it's not because of anything inventive. It's not like you are solving a puzzle, because the puzzle is already known to everybody.

He was talking about it being a better fit on the DS, but really I've got some of those games on the DS, and I have no motivation to play them. You know you don't see the princess, or if you do, who cares? There's nothing interesting in the levels. No future abilities to acquire, like Metroid or Zelda. You've seen what you need to see in the first few levels, and there is nothing more to bother with.

Games like Braid, OTOH, are ways of making a side-scroller and being motivated to play them for multiple reasons. (Story, new abilities, music, inventive levels, etc.) But, those ideas are lost on a Mario game, or something like MegaMan. (Even with the MM abilities, you've seen them all before, so there's nothing new to bother with.)

[Don]

I liked Adam Sessler's take on New Super Mario Bros actually http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/70107 ... Super.html

Yeah, he's a bit of a rambler in "real life", but I get what he's saying. Games like SMB are no longer fulfilling or "goal based". It's like they are too easy, and if they are too hard, it's not because of anything inventive. It's not like you are solving a puzzle, because the puzzle is already known to everybody.

He was talking about it being a better fit on the DS, but really I've got some of those games on the DS, and I have no motivation to play them. You know you don't see the princess, or if you do, who cares? There's nothing interesting in the levels. No future abilities to acquire, like Metroid or Zelda. You've seen what you need to see in the first few levels, and there is nothing more to bother with.

Games like Braid, OTOH, are ways of making a side-scroller and being motivated to play them for multiple reasons. (Story, new abilities, music, inventive levels, etc.) But, those ideas are lost on a Mario game, or something like MegaMan. (Even with the MM abilities, you've seen them all before, so there's nothing new to bother with.)

These ideas are lost on such games because they make no attempt to reinvent themselves when people still suck up the same old stuff in the name of 'old school'.

Some guy in Brazil has a flash-based version of MMX engine where you can fight multiple bosses at once (Agile, Violin, and Serges) who are each separate entities with their own lifebar. This has never been done in a Megaman game since at best it's still just one boss that has two points you can hit (say, Prometheus and Pandora in ZX). So this actually violates one of the key concept to Megaman where there is supposed to be alway a safe way to dodge everything. With 3 separate entities there are times where there are no safe spots on the map. But to compensate X's power level is set at what'd usually be the Ultimate Armor level (i.e. cheat code level) as he can go through one enemy lifebar in 3 hits.

So the whole fight actually plays very different from a methodical turtle fight that's the norm in the Megaman universe. There isn't some safe pattern you can dodge but you got enough firepower to kill them before you get killed assuming you dodged their attacks at least a couple of times. All this is doable with the existing engine since the Megaman engine clearly can keep track of distinct opponents with separate lifebars (or the entire game wouldn't work). But it's just never done because it's, well, different.

Applying this in reverse, you could've the Guardians all present as valid friendly entities in the final fight against Omega in Z3. I thought the whole point was that you needed everyone's power put together to defeat the most powerful Reploids in the Megaman universe. But of course it's still just a generic fight with the Guardians showing up only in a cutscene fashion.

You don't have to invent new gimmicks just for the sake of inventing them, but there are cases where it'd actually make sense to inject new elements into gameplay since the story demands it anyway.

[Zeus]

I liked Adam Sessler's take on New Super Mario Bros actually http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/70107 ... Super.html

Yeah, he's a bit of a rambler in "real life", but I get what he's saying. Games like SMB are no longer fulfilling or "goal based". It's like they are too easy, and if they are too hard, it's not because of anything inventive. It's not like you are solving a puzzle, because the puzzle is already known to everybody.

He was talking about it being a better fit on the DS, but really I've got some of those games on the DS, and I have no motivation to play them. You know you don't see the princess, or if you do, who cares? There's nothing interesting in the levels. No future abilities to acquire, like Metroid or Zelda. You've seen what you need to see in the first few levels, and there is nothing more to bother with.

Games like Braid, OTOH, are ways of making a side-scroller and being motivated to play them for multiple reasons. (Story, new abilities, music, inventive levels, etc.) But, those ideas are lost on a Mario game, or something like MegaMan. (Even with the MM abilities, you've seen them all before, so there's nothing new to bother with.)

OK, here's a question for you then: other than some gimmicks, like the time reverse ability in Braid, the "repeat" ability in Mr. Winterbottom (coming soon to XBLA), or even the sword making ability in Muramasa, where would you take 2D platformers? They're pretty much a retro/nostalgia thing now, I'm not sure what else they can really do with them. That's why I'm satisfied with a great version of what I've seen before as opposed to an evolution of a very mature genre

[SineSwiper]

OK, here's a question for you then: other than some gimmicks, like the time reverse ability in Braid, the "repeat" ability in Mr. Winterbottom (coming soon to XBLA), or even the sword making ability in Muramasa, where would you take 2D platformers? They're pretty much a retro/nostalgia thing now, I'm not sure what else they can really do with them. That's why I'm satisfied with a great version of what I've seen before as opposed to an evolution of a very mature genre

This coming from the person who hasn't played Braid.

[Mental]

The Wii can handle mindblowing graphics - look at Metroid, look at Super Smash, etc. etc. There are times I feel like the graphics in Smash Melee are even better than in my 360 titles.

The REASON that the Wii ends up with a lot of games with shitty graphics is that nobody but Nintendo and their allies in their gaming zaibatsu knows how to program for the thing right, and they are notorious for being harder to crack for info on the subject than a jungle nut.

They won't even talk to you unless you have two published commercial titles under your belt, and while third-party developers have become important to them I still wonder (given what they were like in the 1980s) if they actually understand how important it is to really open up your machine and its tricks to ALL your developers, not just your chosen elite squads.

[Zeus]

This coming from the person who hasn't played Braid.

I played the demo through so it's not like I don't know the game at all. Sure it's not the "full experience" but it wasn't exactly a 2 minute demo. Enough to give you a good idea of what the game is all about.

I do have a copy on the PC, I really should pull it out sometime.

[Flip]

This coming from the person who hasn't played Braid.

I played the demo through so it's not like I don't know the game at all. Sure it's not the "full experience" but it wasn't exactly a 2 minute demo. Enough to give you a good idea of what the game is all about.

I do have a copy on the PC, I really should pull it out sometime.

Yeah you should, best ending and most clever game ever. Loved the shit out of it.

[Zeus]

I'm gonna hook up my 10 year-old comp to my TV soon so likely then. That, World of Goo, and Mother 3 will be on the top of my list of games to play that way

[bovine]

I liked Adam Sessler's take on New Super Mario Bros actually http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/70107 ... Super.html

Yeah, he's a bit of a rambler in "real life", but I get what he's saying. Games like SMB are no longer fulfilling or "goal based". It's like they are too easy, and if they are too hard, it's not because of anything inventive. It's not like you are solving a puzzle, because the puzzle is already known to everybody.

He was talking about it being a better fit on the DS, but really I've got some of those games on the DS, and I have no motivation to play them. You know you don't see the princess, or if you do, who cares? There's nothing interesting in the levels. No future abilities to acquire, like Metroid or Zelda. You've seen what you need to see in the first few levels, and there is nothing more to bother with.

Games like Braid, OTOH, are ways of making a side-scroller and being motivated to play them for multiple reasons. (Story, new abilities, music, inventive levels, etc.) But, those ideas are lost on a Mario game, or something like MegaMan. (Even with the MM abilities, you've seen them all before, so there's nothing new to bother with.)

OK, here's a question for you then: other than some gimmicks, like the time reverse ability in Braid, the "repeat" ability in Mr. Winterbottom (coming soon to XBLA), or even the sword making ability in Muramasa, where would you take 2D platformers? They're pretty much a retro/nostalgia thing now, I'm not sure what else they can really do with them. That's why I'm satisfied with a great version of what I've seen before as opposed to an evolution of a very mature genre

FUN

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/pax-09-shank/55586

[Chris]

Yeah, he's a bit of a rambler in "real life", but I get what he's saying. Games like SMB are no longer fulfilling or "goal based". It's like they are too easy, and if they are too hard, it's not because of anything inventive. It's not like you are solving a puzzle, because the puzzle is already known to everybody.

He was talking about it being a better fit on the DS, but really I've got some of those games on the DS, and I have no motivation to play them. You know you don't see the princess, or if you do, who cares? There's nothing interesting in the levels. No future abilities to acquire, like Metroid or Zelda. You've seen what you need to see in the first few levels, and there is nothing more to bother with.

Games like Braid, OTOH, are ways of making a side-scroller and being motivated to play them for multiple reasons. (Story, new abilities, music, inventive levels, etc.) But, those ideas are lost on a Mario game, or something like MegaMan. (Even with the MM abilities, you've seen them all before, so there's nothing new to bother with.)

OK, here's a question for you then: other than some gimmicks, like the time reverse ability in Braid, the "repeat" ability in Mr. Winterbottom (coming soon to XBLA), or even the sword making ability in Muramasa, where would you take 2D platformers? They're pretty much a retro/nostalgia thing now, I'm not sure what else they can really do with them. That's why I'm satisfied with a great version of what I've seen before as opposed to an evolution of a very mature genre

FUN

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/pax-09-shank/55586

Shank was epic fun. I gave it my game of the show. It was just great.

[Zeus]

Shank proves my point. It's essentially a Guardian Heroes / Double Dragon rip gameplay-wise. Since there's really nowhere for the genre to evolve beyond a few gimmicks, we have to settle for solid versions of what we've seen before.

[Chris]

have you played the game zeus? Because I have It's solid as hell, smooth as hell, and adds a lot to any retro formula. It's one of the most creative indies I've seen in a while.

[SineSwiper]

I played the demo through so it's not like I don't know the game at all. Sure it's not the "full experience" but it wasn't exactly a 2 minute demo. Enough to give you a good idea of what the game is all about.

No, not really. Though, admittedly, I was sold on the soundtrack and good reviews.

But, I can't stress enough how much you should play it. Also, World of Goo is really fun, too.

[Zeus]

I played the demo through so it's not like I don't know the game at all. Sure it's not the "full experience" but it wasn't exactly a 2 minute demo. Enough to give you a good idea of what the game is all about.

No, not really. Though, admittedly, I was sold on the soundtrack and good reviews.

But, I can't stress enough how much you should play it. Also, World of Goo is really fun, too.

I've never said a single bad thing about Braid, just Microshaft's pricing of it. That, World of Goo, and Shadow Complex are the downloadable games that I haven't played that I really want to. Just a time issue right now with the kids and glut of games that have come out in the last few months